Link to the podcast episode. Listen on Apple Music, Spotify, or wherever you pod.
Intro:
Hey, welcome to episode 363 of the show. We continue our Sundance Film Festival coverage with Joe Hunting's “We Met in Virtual Reality. It's a film made entirely inside the world of VR. Joe talks about the unique challenges and joys of making a film this way, how he met the unique cast of characters in the movie, and much more. Hope you enjoy the episode and I'll see you in the intermission.
Chuck:
All right. Hey, Joe, how are you doing?
Joe:
Hey, I'm good. I'm very well, thank you. Very happy to be here.
Chuck:
Yeah, I appreciate you coming on. And I understand you're out in Park City right now and taking advantage of the beautiful sites, even though the festival has decided to go to the Internet. Understandably you're getting to enjoy Park City itself. What's the best restaurant? Because I haven't been there. It's been almost 15 years. What's the best restaurant that you've eaten at so far? Because there's a lot of them. I remember.
Joe:
Oh, gosh, I've only been to a few, but I've been to the Purple Sage twice. Purple Sage, okay. Which is, I believe, on Main Street. That Purple Sage is still a winner. It was recommended to me by some of our team, and it's lived up to its expectations. So if I can make a recommendation, it would be Purple Sage thus far. But I'm going out for dinner again tomorrow, so we'll see. Trying to check out all the spots, but that's my favorite so far. Okay. Yes. Decided still to go, even in light of the news. But Park City is just lovely, so why not?
Chuck:
Oh, man. I just remember walking around because I went right out of College and just walking around and seeing just everybody. I remember waiting in line, going to some restaurant, and Christina Ricci and Samuel L. Jackson were just there. And we're trying not to freak out because we're trying to be cool because that's what you're supposed to do. You're not supposed to freak out because everybody's, like, relaxed and don't talk to me. But I was like, this is Christina Ricci and Sam Jackson. How am I not supposed to freak out? It was just so surreal.
Joe:
Oh, gosh, yes, I've missed that part of the festival, but I still have the dinners.
Chuck:
I was going to ask if there's not a sizable amount of people that still decide. I imagine other people were like, you and like, you know what? We're going to go and have fun and watch the films on TV or whatever.
Joe:
Yes, I think there are a few stragglers like me who still decided to come. Some of our team associated with we met in virtual reality here, which is lovely. So we've been able to meet some of the Logistic production team in person, which has been a wonderful experience and very happy that I was able to have that in terms of other filmmakers? I'm not sure, to be honest. Everyone's kind of doing their own thing. Obviously, it's no kind of thing bringing us together physically. So enjoy the festival. But I'm sure that there are some stragglers around. But yes, there's a handful of us here.
Chuck:
Well, is it? I don't want to say bummer, but because you get into Sundance, which is one of the top film festivals, but then you're still showing at Sundance, and this is a huge opportunity. Does it take away some of it that you don't get to see it in the theater with people, or is it still just as cool as it would have been?
Joe:
Oh, yeah, of course. It was devastating when we received the news that the festival was going purely online. Yeah, we were really crushed myself, the director of the film and the subjects of the documentary. This is a film that was shot entirely inside of social VR, and we'd all known and got to know each other in VR, not just outside of just the festival. We couldn't wait just to meet in person for the first time and actually just kind of grow our relationship after working together for a year, some year and a half. So that was something that we were all looking forward to. So that was actually, I think, the most crushing thing for myself and all of the team. But we all picked each other up and kind of got the wind back in our sails, and I've been able to meet some of the team in person here who came with me. So only one of the cast, Jenny, which has been a really nice experience. Exactly. We're still premiering at Sundance. Our premiere was very successful, and our film has been received with such a warm and welcoming reaction. So I couldn't be happier. But I do miss the opportunity to sit in a theater and just really listen to the reactions and really hear what and feel what people are thinking. That's obviously something we've missed out on, but it will come. Hopefully the film will screen again. It's a shame we couldn't have that for the premiere, but we'll get another time. We stay positive. Definitely.
Chuck:
That's good. Is it possible to have a screening of the film in VR chat? I'm woefully unfamiliar with the medium, although I've been playing video games my entire life, and it seems like something I would be doing anyway. But is that a possibility?
Joe:
Yes, absolutely it is. Yeah. I go watching films all the time when I'm over. I'm in VR, okay. And I'm completely committed to bringing the documentary into some VR premieres and at least doing VR screenings because it's really important to me to celebrate the film with the community and place it was made in and about. So absolutely. I'd love to do that. In terms of business logistics and how distributors function, it is kind of a Gray area that is questionable because as a VR screening, a public screening, is there a private screening? Is it kind of commercial online? All these questions, kind of very new questions that no other filmmakers have had to tackle yet, specifically talking about social VR. I mean, so it's a really interesting position to be in and hopefully really exciting one, but I haven't quite figured out as we're still very early. We've just had our first premiere, but it's certainly something that's possible and something that I'd like to do.
Chuck:
You brought up a whole bunch of questions that I was going to bring up, but before we get into those tell everybody just a quick rundown of the story of the film.
Joe:
Sure. So I'm the director and producer and cinematographer and editor, very much an indie film, indie filmmaker behind We Met in Virtual Reality, which is a documentary filmed entirely inside the world of social VR during the covert lockdown. And the film follows two long distance couples who were growing their relationships in VR during the pandemic as they were preparing to meet physically for the first and second time alongside a sign language teacher who is dedicated to building a welcoming community for the deaf and hard of hearing community of VR users. And through these kind of interweaving, unique and relatable stories, the film presents a kind of broad portrait of what socializing and being present in social VR is truly like. The film is kind of both dedicated to the VR community, but also as a film that I hope will educate and really ground people who've never experienced or witnessed VR in that world and kind of educate them on what that experience is like.
Chuck:
Yeah, and I was one of them, honestly, Dustin, who reached out to you guys. We were looking through the list of films after we heard the announcement, like, all right, which ones really stand out that we can try and get some attention to? Who do we really want to talk to? And I saw the description of this when I went, all right, I've got to talk to this guy. And then watching the movie, I feel like a lesser filmmaker. This would have been a mess because making a movie, a feature documentary in VR, it sounds like a nightmare. But I've seen so many documentaries over the years. I used to screen for film festivals, and I saw just tons and tons of them. And it just felt like it was such a natural fit as a documentary. It sounded to be honest, because I would see certain shots in the film and I thought, yeah, I've seen not that you were copying it, but it just seemed like that would be a move in a documentary that took out in real life, as opposed to I was kind of blown away, to be honest. And I see why it's at Sundance. That's just me gushing about the movie for a few minutes. Sorry, I couldn't believe it.
Joe:
It's the most rewarding thing to hear. So no, please keep going. Just go for the whole podcast. Okay. Yeah, no problem. For you. That's very kind and I can speak to that. But if you have any questions, please go ahead. But thank you for saying that. No.
Chuck:
Yeah. Just in general the approach, especially since this isn't your first rodeo in making content within VR. So I'm sure that helped. So maybe talk a little bit about that, making the shorts, but then doing a feature in any specific issues you had, feature versus short kind of thing?
Joe:
Oh, yeah. Well, I think it was definitely a real journey. I came into VR in the summer of 2018 and was inspired by this article that I read about VR chat, the platform that I've been exploring. And in the article read a handful of quotes about VR chat, saving people's lives and just really profoundly affecting people's relationships and really forging community and as a documentarian, those questions just sparked so much curiosity in me. So I immediately got into the space and just started speaking to people and just kind of researching and getting kind of an idea of what the human condition was like in this space, kind of from an anthropological point of view. And burst my first short film, which is called A Wider Screen, which really explores kind of an intense romantic relationship and how different forms of Avatar were affecting these subjects, gender and sexuality or ideas on gender and sexuality. And it's kind of from making sure films, my curiosity just became overwhelming and I was kind of led down a path that I couldn't stop. But to answer the question about the kind of differences between the short films and the feature, it's worth saying, first of all, that I wasn't in VR for making the short films. I was actually looking at my computer screen, so I wasn't wearing a headset. And so someone disassociated from the space and I was composing the compositions of the film from my computer. So it's very still those films, and it almost felt like I was recording it really felt like I was recording the game and recording the world from a very outside perspective. Okay. Yeah. And coming into the feature, by that time got my headset. I'd been in VR for a good year and a half or maybe two years, I think, working on another project, which was a series, and I'd really got uncomfortable with being in a headset and actually just being in a headset and using a camera, they're present in the space with the subjects and looking over your monitor, looking over your physical camera and seeing the people who are there and actually just really listening and being there with them was such a profound difference that was so much more organic to what you'd expect from a physical production. And I really carried a lot of that feeling into just fundamentally going into the feature film production. And towards the September of 2020, this camera came out that a member of the VR tech community had created. His name is Hirobeki and the camera is called VRC Lens, and the camera is a purposebuilt cinema camera that can do anything and everything that a physical cinema camera can and you're just holding it in VR. So I was using a camera in VR and I can change lenses, I can Zoom in and out, change my depth of field, change my aperture auto exposure, I can fly it as a drone and shoot handheld and use focus assist to do manual focusing. And suddenly all the tools became available for me to shoot something longer form and have the confidence to really take influences that I had in the real film industry and really apply typical documentary iconography and storytelling formats that we can be familiar with in this world, to really bring audiences from everywhere into this world and really understand and comprehend it. And then another thing that really forced this idea upon me was COVID. The context of COVID provided kind of a groundwork for these stories to become relatable and for people to understand why people coming into VR at this time and the value of these relationships outside of just their kind of fundamental value in VR. Everyone knew physical isolation during COVID. And so these stories about people in relationships and people struggling with community during 2020 was something that we could all relate to. So there's a lot of different reasons the feature was inspired, but I think the biggest difference for my short films was just being in VR with a cinema camera and shooting handheld and not being so kind of deeply present in the space rather than looking from the outside, looking from the outside in.
Chuck:
Yeah, that's really interesting, especially since over COVID, generally, this podcast was in person. I got to talk to people face to face, but of course, COVID, that killed that. And we've had a lot of conversations about, like, what is the type of cinema and entertainment and content that's going to come out of this crazy times that can only really be made from this time. And I feel like this movie is exactly that. Like, you were influenced by the events. A lot of these people probably hopped on for the first time to be our chat like, well, I can't talk to anybody else in person, so let's go online. And thus this is exactly the kind of stuff like we were talking about Over Covid, so it's super interesting.
Intermission:
It was great talking to Joe. Very interesting. I never thought, like I said in the interview, I've been playing video games my entire life, and you always dream of that time that we see, like on Ready Player One. Like, oh, I'm just fully immersed in this thing and it feels like you're tiptoeing towards that reality or maybe not even tiptoeing, maybe making huge leaping strides. But to make the feature film inside of one, it's very interesting. It's very interesting. Even if you think the project sounds weird or you're not interested in video game stuff or VR stuff, I would recommend it if you're a filmmaker, just to what Joe does with the movie is very interesting. But yeah, he's a very cool guy. I'm very interested to see what he does in the future. So let's get you back to the show. Enjoy the rest of the interview with Joe, and I'll see you next week.
Chuck:
Talk a little bit about finding the right because there's such a wide cast of characters in the movie. Talk about how did you pick them with those people you knew? Or did you put out a casting call of sorts or like, how did it work?
Joe:
Yeah. So I've been in VR for a good two and a half years before coming into the feature. And during that time I really tried to immerse myself in a lot of different communities. Naturally, because I was doing documentary work before the feature film, I was always interested in growing my circle and looking for stories that were influential and looking for people that had really strong voices. And some of those people came into the feature to speak specifically, I met one of the key voices in the film, Jenny, who is an ASL American Sign Language teacher in the Helping Hands community. I met her during the making of a series in 2020 called Virtually Speaking, and she features in the final episode. And just her attitude towards teaching and education and really wanting to raise awareness of kind of hard of hearing and the deaf experience and help grow the sign language community was so inspirational to me and it was very clear that that was a story worth exploring further. And so quite early on, I worked with Jenny, and the Helping Hands community was one of the first communities I started filming in for the feature film alongside eight different communities that I kind of lived with for a year long period during Covet. One of those communities was the International Dances Association, which is how I met Dust Bunny, who is a belly dance teacher in that community, and she introduced me to her partner Toaster, and they were both going through this tough situation in their relationship with COVID upon them. They were not able to meet physically and they both spoke, I think, so much truth to that situation alongside Dust Bunny's belly dance classes, which are just inherently fascinating and so much fun to watch. Who would expect a belly dance class in VR? Yeah. And then finally, the last kind of key voices in the film are Dragon Heart and Israel Boy, who met at an exotic dance club called Club Zodiac, in which they're both dancers and staff and they help manage this exotic club. I met Dragon Heart just by walking into that club, and Dragon Heart was the first person who ran up to me and said hello. And it's worth mentioning. My second Shore film was all about that community and all about Club Zodiac. So I'd actually already grown quite close relationship with that exotic club in 2019. So it's quite an easy transition to return there and then include them in something else because they already knew how I'd worked and what I was intending to do. So that was quite a natural situation. So it's a very organic process. I think I spoke with. I lived in eight different communities, spoke with probably over 30 people for the film, just exploring those questions around how VR has affected their life during this time. And so there's a lot of just kind of cutting down and really trying to understand what stories people could connect to both in VR and outside of VR, because it was really important to me that new audiences learning about the space for the first time were reaching characters that they could connect to and relate to and really understood the context of. That was always a really important consideration to me. So that was the kind of thing that really sealed the decision on the cast that you see in the film. Was that because they have such relatable stories? Oh, yeah. It's worth mentioning finally as well that there are situations in the film that I could have never planned. So there are moments that involve trauma and very spontaneous, hilarious funny moments as well. That the film I reacted to in the moment and they actually caused characters to be casted and formed. That was unexpected. So it was a very organic process as you'd imagine a documentary filmmaker to kind of work and live through in a physical production.
Chuck:
One of the funny moments that you're talking about. One of my favorite, I guess moments in the film was Jenny was teaching one of her classes and your camera was focused on her answering the question of somebody like, hey, I want you to focus on I think they wanted her to talk about what's the sign for similar or something. And then you pan over, you pan over and there’s Kermit the Frog sitting there asking, all right. And it reminded me of Ready player one, where everybody is kind of familiar with that. This is ostensibly kind of the same thing where your big Immersive world and there's all these your favorite characters and there's Kermit the Frog asking, hey, I'm curious about this sign language. And it was such a funny thing, but it did get me thinking about you mentioned about rights and stuff. Did any of that ever come up, like the fact that you were using this game online world? I'm not sure what the experience or whatever in the first place, but then you have Kermit the Frog in your movies, in a way. Did that kind of stuff come up?
Joe:
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. That was obviously a concern. I think every filmmaker should be concerned when they're dealing with a situation like this. It's a very unique place to be filmed. You can find anything and everything in VR. So being aware of characters in the background and what will affect your right situation was a very important and quite agonizing process for me. Certainly there are a few kind of recognizable characters in the film which we've logged and put together and kind of had long conversations about with myself and the team. And in the end, this is a platform which is called VR chat and VR Chat. Everything on the platform is created by the community, the world, the avatars, they're all user generated. And so the characters that you see are recreations and kind of fan art of these characters. And it's not my intention to capture these characters very directly and purposefully to put Kermit the Frog in the film. This is someone wearing Kermit the Frog and learning sign language. Right. And so there's kind of an argument to be made there, but it is something that we're working through and still discovering because it is such a new territory. But the context of it being a documentary, I think does give flexibility in these situations. But thankfully companies have been very understanding and aware of what the context is and just kind of laying out that context is really important when you're dealing with situations like that. But I could have made that there was a lot of decisions I made to cut scenes because of this. But that moment with Kermit is just so perfect thematically, I felt, and it really speaks truth to that world, as you say. So I couldn't quite bring myself to leave it. And we're still just processing that. But I'm glad that you enjoyed that moment. That's one that I enjoy a lot.
Chuck:
And the company that makes VRChat, I guess, is actually just called VR chat. They are cool. Or did you have conversations with them and stuff?
Joe:
Yeah, absolutely. We spoke the very start of production halfway through the end, and they're aware of me with my short films as well. So we've always had a healthy relationship. We met in virtual reality is in no way associated to VR chat. There's no supportive relationship there. It is simply an agreement in we allow you to film in the platform. But it's worth noting that mentioned earlier, everything in VR chat is created by the community. So all of the visuals that you see, the worlds, the avatars are created by the community. So it's actually my priority to reach out to the community and the world creators and ask them for permission for using their world, using their advertisers. Those are the rights that I have to get. But because this film is a celebration of the platform, it's a celebration of the community and it's a celebration of the people of VR. Everyone's been very excited and supportive to have their work appearing in the film, which has been a real triumph. And it's worth mentioning that the film would not have been possible without the world creators and the avatar creators creating incredible, incredible, incredible works that are featured in the film.
Chuck:
That makes sense. Turn of the century, 19. 99, 20. 00. They were online chat rooms where you can have your little avatars. And I remember making. I'm like 19, 20 and I'm all dark and mysterious, so I'm like crafting my little avatar have, like, these cool wings and I spend hours on them and I would just go to these rooms and hang out, be like, Man, I hope somebody says something about cool wings. I remember that feeling of just, like, spending all this time making this stuff and hoping like, oh, look, how am I put into it? And it feels like this is just. I don't know. If I tried this, I would get sucked in pretty hardcore.
Chuck:
But it's so cool that this kind of thing exists now to just go meet literally anybody, anywhere in the world and you had all these relationships of people literally 5000 miles apart that had these special connections, otherwise they never would have met in any other timeline. You know what I mean? It's kind of crazy when you think about it.
Joe:
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, that's the inspiration of the film. It is such a unique experience to find love through VR and really connect with someone in that space so deeply without ever seeing their physical flesh, flesh, body or just seeing their face. It is such a almost genuine and pure way of getting to know someone for their personality and I think it's a really beautiful thing for that to happen. That's an experience that's Truthful for me, as well as a filmmaker interested in these stories and getting to know people so deeply in the cast as well. It wasn't actually until we had the first screening of The Rough Cut that I saw the cast. I never seen them in person, and that was after a year. It's been an extremely unique process.
Chuck:
So do you think you're going to continue making films in VR Chat? Is there more to explore or do you want to go? I don't want to call it real film, but like out in real life film.
Joe:
Physical film, physical.
Chuck:
There we go. Physical filming. Are you interested in that or are you just going to see, like, come what may kind of thing?
Joe:
Yeah, certainly taking a little bit of a breather now to focus on releasing we met in virtual reality, but it's been such a humbling experience to see the success of Weber and virtual reality and the amount I've learnt as a cinematographer working with that camera and really using that to inform decisions about documentary storytelling and playing with the form and just writing scenes that were very directed and constructed has brought me a lot of inspiration and teaching, and I'm really inspired now to shoot another project entirely inside VR and I'm starting to write some new projects which are both documentary and potentially a scripted piece, which is a bit more leaning towards fiction as well. So I think there's a lot of potential now in continuing to pioneer this sort of filmmaking, and I'm really excited to be pushing it myself, and so I certainly aim to continue shooting a project in VR. I might do some physical work, but my heart is still in VR, I think, and I'm still very excited to be pushing that medium because I think it is something that we're really on the forefront of and it's a privilege to be on the forefront of it. The camera is very simple and the whole idea of filmmaking, we understand it. It's very simple, but because it's in VR, it's almost like cinema is starting all over again and we're having these learning and realizations that we had years ago, but we're just doing it in another context. But really I'm just taking our knowledge that we have already into VR and just creating something that's in another reality, and I think I'm still overwhelmed by that inspiration, so I'll certainly continue doing stuff in VR. That's a very long winded answer. Sorry.
Chuck:
No, it's fine. Well, it's a complicated question. Just like you mentioned, it's kind of a brave new world and you feel like you're starting over a little bit with, I don't know. I'm sure there's people that are going to be listening to this. Maybe they even watch the movie and they think this isn't a movie because there's people that are just maybe they don't understand it. Maybe they're scared of it or whatever. It's just almost a brand new medium in and of itself. And I feel like stuff like people who are making Vines, grip vine or maybe TikTok now, whatever the children are using YouTube videos. I feel like even though I'm too old, I'm in my 40s, so I'm basically ancient. I don't quite understand everything, but it doesn't mean that I don't get that it's creative. There's something there. There's something there. Even though I'm too old and dumb to understand it, it doesn't matter. It's like the future. And stuff like this is a glimpse into what might be decades in the making. It's just, man, this movie just kind of blew me away. What I usually ask about documentary filmmakers is because I've made unscripted content before and it usually shifts focus at some point when you're making the movie and you think, I have an idea of what this is about, but then there's a hard left or right turn, like, oh, wait, this is what the movie is about. Was there a moment like that for you making this?
Joe:
Oh, definitely. Yeah. Okay. Yes, certainly. I think the first maybe four months of production, I was in production for a year, steadily, almost every other day, mostly on the weekends, capturing moments and interviewing, exploring the platform. And I think it was in June of 2021 that I really realized who the core voices in the film were. So really discovering that Dust Bunny toaster Jenny Dragon heart is your boy and the better together family as well. Scout, Dylan, John and Kevin, that collection of voices, including others who have a slightly more supportive role, I really realized that they were the core voices of the film. And it was at that moment in June, which was about five months into filming, I really realized the film and understood what it was and what needed to be said as well in the message of the film and what was important to me in communicating and what moments would serve the truth of the film and the truth of the place as well in terms of representation of the VR itself. And obviously the film, if you've seen it, is very emotionally led, and it's a film that I hope will ground people in their emotions and in the reality of this new world. And really finding the voices to direct that and make that a relatable and understanding experience was certainly one that I was just very patient on and let myself realize quite slowly. Even though the film is a year long period and that's actually very small, six months, it's still a tight time, but I still gave myself the time to realize that. I think that's really important for any documentary filmmaker to give yourself time to realize and not to get too worried when you're filming something and you have no idea why, but it feels like something, right? Yeah. And then it happens to be the ending of the film in some cases or it happens to be a huge moment that you didn't realize. Yes, it certainly was a process very similar to any other approach.
Chuck:
Well, tell everyone where to find information about the film and future screenings or websites and social media profiles and all that kind of good stuff.
Joe:
Sure. Well, currently I can't quite announce our next world premieres around our next screenings, but we'll certainly be doing some more festival screenings this year, which I'm looking forward to sharing soon. And if you want to hear updates on where the film will be going, please follow at we met in VR film on Twitter. You can also find me at Joeahunting on Twitter and on our Twitters that will be sharing our calls about the film reviews and any festivals that we have going that you can get tickets for to see the film. Sundance was our US led Premier, and thankfully because it was virtual, they really embraced giving people the opportunity to see it online. And so I hope that other festivals this year will have a hybrid model so people can see the festival online at their own convenience by booking a ticket. So hopefully we'll have more opportunities for people to see the film that way. But please follow those accounts and you can keep up to date with the films there.
Chuck:
Nice. Well, I really appreciate you coming on. Like I said, I really enjoyed it. It was kind of funny. I had some buffering issues on my own end which kind of helped someone like, yeah, this is kind of perfect for this kind of film, but it was a great movie. Everybody should definitely check it out. And I feel like we're going to be seeing some interesting stuff coming from you in the future as well, so I look forward to it. But it was great talking to you. Thanks again for coming on.
Joe:
Oh, it's been my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. And I hope anyone who sees we met in virtual reality enjoys it and can connect with the incredible subjects that I've been fortunate to film with. So thank you. Thank you for having me. And yeah, I hope everyone enjoys the film.